The poker explosion - "soft" sites vs "tough&

[starry]

An observation that I would love to see some feedback on:

One would think that generally players would want to play where the competition is "soft" (ie weak players). However, I am finding more and more that I am having more success at the sites where the competition is supposedly stronger.

I think the reason for this is as follows. It's great to have 1 or 2 weak players at a table. But it seems nowadays that there are often 5 or 6 weak players at a table. This should be good right? Wrong! My theory is that too many weak players (particularily calling stations) at a table spells trouble. I once read a comment that 5 or 6 weak players cumulatively equals one super pro. I find this to be true. Ie if you have a premium hand like AA and you raise and 5 or 6 people see the raise and flop, often your AA will be in trouble. Most times someone will flop a piece or a draw or even 2 pair. Then on the flop if they continue to go one of them will most times catch something. Ie AA does not stand up well to 6 or 7 players seeing the flop. This can be applied to any hand not just AA.
Ie you raise AQ and 5 or 6 see the flop. Even if you flop an A or Q your hand will often not hold up to so many callers. And then a lot of them again get a piece of the flop (ie 2 others have an A, one other has a Q, one other hit another pair on flop, 1 or 2 have some type of draw). If they all continue to the river often someone will catch to beat you. And because they are weak they will not fold!

I am starting to prefer games where you can actually get someone to fold when you have a premium hand or when you flop a good hand. Who do you think does that? Good players. And that is because they know they are behind, know the odds, and will fold and wait for a better hand. But the weak player will call, and again, if there are a number of them calling, its trouble.

My conclusion is that I prefer to play at sites or tables where there are only 1 or 2 real weak players and not 5 or 6 or more. Prior to joining the table the best indication of this is average pot size. Of course once at the table its up to you to judge and read the other players.

Would love to hear some feedback on this.

[jsaw]

I think the reason for your success in tougher games is the quality of the players. I find I do better in buyins than freerolls. If I get beaten in a buyin it is usally because I have been out played or made a mistake; freerolls tend to be more of a crap shoot with too many players playing hands like j6 os and sucking out.

[starry]

My thoughts exactly. And it certainly is not just online. Last night I was at a live free tourney with 60 players. I would say there was 2 or at most 3 players at each table that had any clue.

All kinds of crazy stuff going on. One example: small stack with $5K goes all in with 78s (blinds 1K/2K at this point). Next guy raises to $25K and 3rd guy goes all in $33K. The 25K guickly calls. $25K guy had Q5 o/s and $33K had 3/4 o/s. A 4 flopped and held up.

[Dangerrock]

I too have to agree that having a bunch of bad players at one table at the same time is a recipe for disaster. At least in the short run.

Over the long haul you will still come out ahead playing with that many bad players. But, get ready for a long session. Especially if the cards are particularly unkind to you.

Yesterday I sat down at a 25/50 cent tables and was actually able to use my semi-tight semi-aggressive style successfully.

Keep in mind I am playing 2/4 penny the majority of the time I play ring games. I found the 25/50 cent players at this table to be much more serious. Of course the only thing worse than 2/4 cent is playing with play money.

I can't even sit at those tables any more.

Not saying all 25/50 cent tables are tight for sure most are not. But, i just happened upon a nice table and did well. Scooped up $5 in about 3 rounds of play and called it a night.

[starry]

It is true in long run you should win out. But only prob online is some of them dont stick around. Hit and run!

[Dangerrock]

This is true starry. But, who says they you will get back your money from that person. There is usually more than one fish at the table. Eventually the numbers work in your favor and hands play out like they are suppose to play. Patience.

[starry]

That is true PC. I/we always gotta keep reminding ourselves of that. Especially when you go a few days where this happens over and over. At times (of course) you go on little streaks where all the fish keeping catching junk and it seems you cannot win no matter what you do. But it always turns around at some point.

Like you say, the thing is to continue to play good poker despite all of this. The worst thing you can do is to start to play like them and/or tilt. I have done this sometimes in the past and it nearly always bites me. Ie I started one session flopping trips and lost to a gut shot on the river who call over pot sized bets on the flop and turn. After that I went on a bit of a tilt and had one of my worst nights ever. I try to limit my tilting as much as possible but I think we all do it at times. I dont think anyone can say they never tilt. But again, you must try to do it the very least possible because tilting will nearly always make things worse.

If you find you are tilting after a bad beat quit! You can always come back later that day or the next day. The online games will always be there ready and waiting. To play your best your mind has to be clear and ready to play. If you are mad, depressed, tired etc. not a good idea to play.

[domgoran]

Couldnt agree more Starry m8, calling stations are lucky, well not really lucky, but they call anything such as 4 7 os. If tighter players are on the table, they may call especially when holding premium cards, so if say 7 from 10 people call, 1 is a calling station, the rest are pretty tight, chances are, everyone who has good cards are probably holding eachothers outs already giving the 4 7 os more chance of hitting his crap. Voila, chit innit m8:(
Good luck

[Dangerrock]

Funny how when a fish tilts they win with pretty much anything. And they don't even know they are on tilt. Basically since the tilt 100% of the time. Well, ok, not 100%. Sometimes they actually get a real hand.

But, when a semi decent to good player tilts, 99% of the time it is an absolute disaster. Or, at best, the loss of a few bets.

I give you an example. I played like a hour and 20 minutes yesterday. All that time I may have only seen a few flops. I would get a calling hand in position and have to fold it because of a raise. Or, I would just get flat out junk. Then I get QQ and raise preflop. I get called by J5 of who gets trips and sucks out on me. Boy, I was steaming. The only hand in almost 1 1/2 ours and it gets sucked out on.

Well, a few hands later I get k9 suited UTG and the Donkey raises. He has been playing pretty crappy stuff. And has given all the chips he got from me back to other people. I say what the heck. I call the 2 bets out of position with a piece of junk. And what happens you ask? Do I flip top pair? Do I flip top 2 pair? Do I flop 4 to a flush? Nope. the flop misses me entirely. Like it should have. J5 junk is a power hand for him and K9 junk is just junk for me. Wasted two bets.

I end up getting the guy back and most of my chips on a hand I had to go out on a limb with. There was a possible flush and straight. But all he had was q6 off. I think he pair the 6 to my straight. I was almost as sickened by winning that hand as I was for losing the other. Honestly, I like winning a hand by out playing the person. But, Q6 off. At least try.

I took a few more hands in the next 40 minutes or so. And was ahead for the night.

So, weak foolish competition is gonna make you money in the long run. But, man it can sure stink at times.

[starry]

You are right. In "the long run" the good player should win out. But sometimes it can hurt you bad. It seems to become almost more like a bit of a lottery at times than poker. Or more like "gambling" than poker.

Especially at the lower stakes. I think a year or so ago that, even at lower stakes, poker was about 75% skill 25% luck (perhaps about 90% skill at higher levels). Now at lower levels it seems like its about 50/50 luck/skill.

The post before yours Champ is also true. You get a couple of loose players at the table and everyone sees that. So some of the tighter players start seeing flops thinking that the loose players are playing with total junk so maybe they can get in a good pot with hands they may not otherwise call with. So all of the sudden you have a whole bunch of people in the flop which normally is going to spell disaster for hands like AA KK AK QQ JJ AQ etc. Hands like suited connectors play much better against a lot of players, but of course you need them to hit.