[Mist]

Originally Posted by KingBorgo

This is a perfect play. You say there are huge reverse implied odds if Qc hits. Nope. That is incorrect. There are only such odds if Hero is unable to lay his hand down when he suspects he is behind.

I only said so because I have no idea about Hero's pokerskills, because for some it might be difficult to lay down their hand when the Qc comes.

And it is rather obvious there is no flush draw out there. 4 to a flop, with 2 clubs, and you see the turn for 100? Also, many of those players are going to be playing cards that matched the board. No, I fear no flush.

I think you are missing a crucial point here. The level of play. Players at this level are usually very bad, and I can well see them playing a flushdraw this way. A good example of the poor level is seen preflop where the BB miniraised with four limpers already in the pot.

On the turn...Yes, with a nut flush, Villain will flat call an opponents bet of 60% of his stack with a made hand. Wait, no he won't. He makes that play with 2 cards. Kd or Kh. Those are the only two cards. Well, that make it a good call anyways. When the Tc hits, he doesn't want to waste another 1k on an obvious flush...that isn't there.

My following theory is based on your assumptions on Villain having Kd or Kh (straight).

Well, let's look at the hand from Villains point of view.
If villain decides to call the 1400 on the turn, knowing it's likely for Hero to have the flush, he must also know that Hero will probably put the rest of his chips in on the river (1k) no matter what card comes out.
Therefore it is extremly unlikely he can fold on the river, no matter the rivercard.

Hero should also realize this, and understand that he will most likely be called on the river if he then decides to go all-in.

If you look at it from Villains point of view then the club on the river shouldn't change anything IMO. Why?

1. The chances of Hero catching a flush or a straight on the turn are just as big IMO. Villain knew that he might be drawing dead when he called on the turn, so the club on the river shouldn't really change his decission of calling the all-in bet on the river with his straight.

2. Chanses of Hero calling the bet on the flop with XcXo and then betting out on the turn with a flushdraw is extremly unlikely, so therefore it is also quite unlikely that Villain cought the flush on the river.

3. Probably the most important thing. When he called the bet on the turn he took a chance knowing he might be behind, and the club on the river gives him no new info. Therefore he has to call on the river seeing as he already called on the flop (plus he's getting 4:1 odds).

This is why I think both Hero and Villain played the hand wrong. Hero should have realized that Villain would call his bet on the river, and Villain should've called on the river because he basically already made that decission on the turn.

Either he folds his straight on the turn, or calls the turn AND the river, knowing that he was probably already behind on the turn where he took a chance by calling.

...there is no floating...

As I already explained, I wasn't fully paying attention when reading thru the handhistory for the first time.